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| Definition of Elite Quaterback/Player | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 19 2013, 01:16 AM (2,500 Views) | |
| Pookie | Oct 19 2013, 01:16 AM Post #1 |
Pookie Powa!
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I am bringing this debate here because this way we don't ruin the other topic.
You're allowing your biased opinion to take over your judgement. I never said Alex Smith was a bad quarterback or the fact that he wasn't a factor on the 49ers team. HOWEVER, I think that the players that he had around him were a BIG influence on him being solid. He even had the legendary RANDY MOSS on his team. He is not an elite YET and don't kid yourself. If we are putting Alex Smith in that category, you might as well put Tony Romo or Jay Cutler who have YET to prove anything.
If you're talking about the Steelers and Ben, he has already proven himself twice. He has won TWO Superbowls, and he did it VERY EARLY in his career.
Hypocrite how? I'm a hypocrite because I won't categorize Alex Smith in the elite category because he hasn't proven it yet? You sir have lost some of your marbles. Both Lawrence Tayler and Ray Lewis are legendary players in their positions. They were elite because they won championships and were the FOUNDATION of their teams. It's what matters in this league. I hate to burst your bubble, but nobody ever remembers 2nd place.
What point are you trying to make here?
Are you really going to compare Barry Sanders to Alex Smith who play completely different positions? Barry Sanders was an elite because he was a running back who broke records and carried his team ON his back much like Peterson does today. What record has Alex Smith broken? What has he done in his career to say WOW? What has he done besides go to the NFC Championship game ONLY to lose a game everyone was certain the 49ers would win. The bottom line is, when it is all said and done, people look at championships. A quarterback is the center piece of a team. If we compare Peyton to Tom Brady, who would you say was better? Tom brady. Why? He has three superbowl rings. This argument will never change. It won't change. Dan Marino was an elite quarterback because he broke records. At the end of the day, when people describe Dan Marino, they say this: "He is the best quarterback to NEVER win a superbowl." You know what that tells me? It tells me that if he had won a superbowl, he'd be ranked much higher than he was. He is known for not winning a superbowl because that IS what matters. It is extremely important because that is what teams play for. |
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| Master Gohan | Oct 19 2013, 02:47 AM Post #2 |
 
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Elite QB: Consistently plays at a high rate year after year and doesn't choke when it gets tough. So honestly, Roet, Eli, Flacco aren't I saw you put Brees and Rodgers in your elite pairing on that thread Pookie and I have to disagree. Rodgers and Brees shouldn't be compared to them, its not even close. But clutch you ask? gimme Eli please and no, not because ELi is having a bad season that I suddenly say this. But lets be real, have Flacco and Eli really been that good year after year? They haven't, just a couple years for Eli of elite play for the Super Bowls, but I just can't rank him with Brees and Rodgers. Edited by Master Gohan, Oct 19 2013, 02:48 AM.
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| Fulgore | Oct 19 2013, 03:48 AM Post #3 |
The Darkness Returns
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My point pookie was this -- You said championships are what define elite. That's not what defines elite, like Gohan said. Elite is top-level play with consistency. Not making the rookie mistakes and choking when it gets tough Ben Roflburger got carried in the same manner you're trying to say alex smith is now. The steeler defense was the iron curtain for their superbowl runs. Superbowl wins don't make you elite. I'll even borrow a page out of MLB For this Ichiro Suzuki is considered to be the greatest hitter of our time, but he hasn't won a world series. He's beyond elite. He's one of the BEST ever. GOAT Material @Peyton vs Brady... I'm pretty sure anyone will agree with you that Peyton > Brady. Look what happens to the colts after Peyton is out with an injury Edited by Fulgore, Oct 19 2013, 03:51 AM.
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| Noir | Oct 19 2013, 04:29 AM Post #4 |
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Have to disagree with you there. |
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Oct 19 2013, 06:32 AM Post #5 |
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Here we go again!  @MrGohan Yea my bad I was gonna quote you on something but forgot what, and forgot to take your name out. @Hurry My Curry Which is why the Niners traded Alex away, Kaep can do things Alex can't, I even stated this in my post read it. Well Bowe has terrible hands so that obviously has something top with it, but like I stated Alex bread and butter is the ground and pound game and when the inside wholes get clogged up he can throw or run for the first down, he is accurate on check downs and intermediate passes, just can't throw deep very well which is why Kaep replaced him, simple as that. Yes he can, on intermediate throws 30-35 yards is his limit to throw very accurate balls everything after that is YAC like to Crabs, and ewwww Dwayne Bowe blows donkey chunks yea he had a few good seasons but man I just don't like the guy he has very poor hands and takes to many plays off. He's alright but to compare him to a WR with possibly the best hands in the game is very... potato Yes he does he obviously can't throw bombs and get a TD on the second play of the drive, but he does throw accurately to the receivers he does have like Crabs and VD Crabs is a master at intermediate routes and catches everything in his sight and VD is a great cross and seam route runner which Alex hits a majority of the time for huge chunks or TD's, that's his game to throw intermediate passes and get YAC from his receivers. That helps the run game to keep lanes opened otherwise if Alex did none of that the opposing defense would just stack the box and the run game would disappear. And that is just on the Offense on the defensive side with Alex keeping this long time bleeding drives going his defense is fresh for mostly the entire game which keeps them at top notch every drive. read my last response. Kaep is throwing just enough to keep the other defense honest and not stack the box which helps the run game and defense, also read my last, last response, geez what don't you guys understand this is just absurd. Hurry do you not know football? You can say that for almost every QB in the NFL at some point, just absurd. When I did mention that game, that was an example of when Alex needs to win via shoot out fashion he very well can, and against one of the best gunner type QB's. Just like Alex in his early career, many QB's get criticized guys like Brady, and Favre are no strangers to criticism lol, get over it. Excuse me? Alex never even got the chance to to win the game in the fourth quarter cuz that's when the fumbles occurred! He could have easily redeemed himself but never given the chance... Oh well, there's really nothing more to this. Cam newton has a good defense and a solid running game, and a better receiving core all together than the Niners did in 2011-2012... Get it done Cam! I feel bad for Sam Bradford cuz hes going thru the same thing Alex Smith did, he needs a solid running game! Why did the Rams let Steven Jackson go?! And so what? Both QB's are going thru some ish it doesn't mean they won't pan out, just look at Alex All in hindsight, if the Niners knew what Rodgers would've turned into then yea they would've drafted him instead. Hey but 23 team also passed on Rodgers so yea... And yes Alex Smith did pan out I've already stated many reasons why, and his trade value reflected it, 2 second round picks is quite hefty my friend. How can you say that ^ and in the post before said this and I quote "And why is it that the change to Harbaugh finally helped him?" It means everything in the world! the Niners previous coach was Mike Singletery... and if you can't tell the difference then dude... just stop... Well there is elite in the manner of Brees, Brady, and P. Manning, but like I stated when I mentioned Alex as a top 12 QB his is elite in the way of not turning the ball over and churning out drives bleeding out the clock along the with all the opposing teams hopes lol, and NOT whatsoever did I mention him as elite in the ways of Brees, Brady, P. Manning I even stated that in my previous post read... my ninja just read! Don't come into a debate with me and only have read half my post come in hard with details it'll help out your debating skills. Read my response above ^ and again I never put Alex in the same category as Brees and the others they are ELITE. I said Alex was elite in the "form/manner" <----- KEY WORD'S! Alex is an elite QB in the form of being an excellent game manger style QB and the best in the NFL atm. @Pookie...  Pookie, and your gonna argue that you guys didn't get lucky at critical points in order to reach the SB? In the NFL you need luck, momentum, and talent to reach the SB or win games for that matter, in both SB runs for the Giants particularly that last one Luck, and momentum played a huge factor, that's the only point I was getting across, kudos to you guys and your organization. Que mas quieres que te diga? (What more do you want me to say?) Back when Alex got drafted they had a great RB (and still is)but Alex had one of the worst O-lines in the game it costed him a season ending shoulder injury early in his career. Bringing back memories...  I stated that in my first post about this debate, Alex will lead all that talent into the right direction, the Chiefs for example last year with all that amazing talent where did that get them? thats right they had NO ONE to lead them so they ended up with a 2-14 record, now this year they have a leader in Alex which he is doing just that 6-0 runnin the ground and pound with Jamall Charles instead of Frank Gore That 11th ranked offense stat is misleading, I should know, most of those point were off turnovers did you fail to state in that same year the Niners had the best Takeaway/Giveaway Differential at +28 (1.8/g), which was ranked 1st. And most of that 11th ranked offense stat also came from the ground game and Alex only averaged 160-180 passing yards per game which isn't much. What? Alex didn't just get replaced all willy nilly, he sustained an injury that took him out for a few weeks in which Kaep capitalized and took his job from him it called competition and he stepped up, its not anything new, Harbaugh hand picked Kaep and drafted him, that change was inevitable it was gonna happen sooner or later. Yea no ish! Kaep obviously had the higher ceiling, Alex highest ceiling was a great game manager. No brainer, and the team that wanted Alex paid a pretty hefty price so he was sought after, it just turned out that the niners had a different plan for the future and it didn't include Alex in it, simple business pookie. Gees for gods sake do you or Hurry even read my post thoroughly?! or just the first sentence? I'll tell you what I told Hurry I never put Alex in the same category as Brees and the others they are ELITE. I said Alex was elite in the "form/manner" <----- KEY WORD'S! Alex is an elite QB in the form of being an excellent game manger style QB and the best in the NFL atm. Cuz Eli IS NOT elite, nor am I saying Alex is elite not in the form of a Brees/Brady/P.Manning at least, but Alex is for sure a leader and a very smart one at that. that list is atrocious how are you putting Eli,Flacco and Arron Rodgers on the same playing field, Even Rodgers who had a bad defense, a bad O-line and hasn't had a legit RB in years (until now) and yet with all of those negatives still win games and reach the playoffs constantly(and win a SB), unlike potato face Eli cuz if his O-line plays bad he turns into complete sh**tt as a QB how many int's does he have currently and its only what week 7? I'm not even gonna get into how you got Flacco and Rodgers on the same playing field... OK WHO'S UP FOR ROUND 3?! 
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| Pookie | Oct 19 2013, 01:47 PM Post #6 |
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Pookie Powa!
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I think Terry Bradshaw would disagree with each and every one of you. He had a 70 qb rating, yet he won four superbowls. Are we we going to sit here and say he wasn't elite? Are you going to argue against a man who has 4 superbowl rings despite him having inconsistent play? Please, I think this argument is over. An Elite quarterback is someone who gets the job done. This is my definition of what an Elite is because it is the truth.
Every superbowl winning team has lucky drives that propel them into victory, but the Giants also had capable players that made great/memorable plays. During the 2007 Superbowl, Tom Brady was pressured with his undefeated/possibly best team. He had pressure in his face and couldn't do a damn thing. He became frustrated in that game which I will bring later on in this argument. Cuando vas a saber que los Gigantes eran un equipo bastante bien?
Uhm, yes I did say that Alex Smith is capable of doing that, but he needs a team to do it. He can't do it alone.
So how does this make my argument any less valid? You basically proved my point that he had an amazing team behind him. 
Basically, Alex Smith wasn't favored by some 49ers fans and the coaching staff. If your team is ready to let go of a number 1 draft pick that had years of development, then that tells me he wasn't the key going forward.
Then why have this argument in the first place? Alex Smith is a good quarterback, but nothing more until he proves it. You say he is an elite game manager and Fulgore says he is an elite quarterback, therefore, there is an issue there.
Basically I answered the question in your last quote.
If I remember correctly, it was Eli Manning that went toe/toe with Aaron Rodgers in the 2011 Superbowl run. This was the argument you used for Alex Smith. Other noteable defeats that Eli Manning/Giants beat: Tom Brady TWICE Brett Favre Aaron Rodgers Aren't those all elite quarterbacks? Also, ask Tom Brady or Peyton Manning what they can do when they have a bad O-line. I remember specifically, when Tom Brady got pressure, he couldn't do jack squat against the Giants. He was frustrated when he got hit over and over which I had said earlier. How many times had Peyton Manning choked in the playoffs, yet it doesn't matter? I bet a lot of you are too young to remember those 4-12 seasons that Peyton Manning had. However, he was never asked before a game "Hey Peyton, how do you feel about your brother scoring 7 touchdowns?" In every, single game of his life. Also, lets not forget that Brett Favre has the interception record. One bad season doesn't make a career. Eli, in his total life, has an 81 quarterback rating and that isn't bad at all. All of you are saying that the Giants were lucky, the complete underdogs, yet Eli Manning was able to lead them into victory. If the Giants weren't that great of a team to begin with and they had won two superbowls with Eli Manning, doesn't that say "hey this guy can lead a not so great team into a victory?" Please, I am tired of the double standard in this conversation.
I put Flacco on the same playing field as Rodgers because at the end of the day, when it is all said and done, Superbowls are what people remember. Terry Bradshaw...enough said. Finale
Edited by Pookie, Oct 19 2013, 02:07 PM.
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| Fulgore | Oct 19 2013, 02:47 PM Post #7 |
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The Darkness Returns
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Curtain No one remembers terry bradshaw, who are you KIDDING? It was ALL about the steel curtain in the 70s for the steelers. ALL. You're also missing the point about being Elite -- it means consistent. Eli Manning is NOT consistent.
A great article about this very subject. There's more than one type of QB and they're both capable of being elite. |
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| Pookie | Oct 19 2013, 05:34 PM Post #8 |
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Pookie Powa!
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Terry is an elite quarterback. He is in the HOF. I wasn't around when he was, but I've seen enough Steelers history videos and read enough up on my NFL history to know what kind of qb that he was. I also know that he was inconsistent and when it was all sad and done, his Superbowl victories made him elite period. End of discussion. If Eli wasn't consistent, he wouldn't have a quarterback rating of 81 and wouldn't have broken records. Why don't we talk about the fact that he hasn't missed a snap or a game? Isn't that some sort of consistancy? This isn't even about Eli Manning. The bottom like is if you get the job done, you're an elite. Edited by Pookie, Oct 19 2013, 05:36 PM.
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| Master Gohan | Oct 19 2013, 06:10 PM Post #9 |
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Baseball and football are sports where championships don't matter towards eliteness. Basketball, yes. Lebron can carry his entire team, championships in basketball matter imo. To me, Peyton > Brady regular season but when its playoffs Brady > Peyton |
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| Fulgore | Oct 19 2013, 07:41 PM Post #10 |
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The Darkness Returns
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Terry bradshaw is the equivlant of Trent Dilfer for the 2000 Ravens. |
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Oct 19 2013, 11:49 PM Post #11 |
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Pookie your argument about just because you won a SB(SB's) then that makes you elite, is extremely revolting, you're pretty much stating that Trent Dilfer and Arron Rodgers are in the same league and same ELITEness just based on the fact that they both won a SB. Trent nor Eli can hold Arron's jockstrap, so Pookie please dump that SB wins argument it's just plain atrocious tbh, just not a good arguement for this debate...  Me and Fulgore agreed on the same thing about Alex Smith yesterday, again read the entire post before jumping into a debate like this.
Because in both SB runs you guys were the underdogs and relied mostly on momentum and luck to achieve success. In the first SB run yes in the SB he led you guys to a SB win, cuz of how clutch Eli is in those situations but that is about it, if I remember correctly in the 2011 SB run Eli didn't even out gun Alex Smith which is very disheartening lol. And in that game to reach the SB Eli did not lead them to the victory it was a player by the name of Kyle Williams lol and your kicker xD. Thats right you guys didn't have that great of a team in both SB runs yet what did I say a SB winning team needed was? Luck, Momentum, and talent. Yes Luck and Momentum played the biggest factors to you guys winning both SB's not Eli, Eli did clutch win both SB's tho but he sure as hell didn't lead them there. Imo the only "elite" trait Eli Manning has is his clutchness, which is great thing to have so don't be mad you guys after all do have 2 SB victories in the last decade. lul 
Edited by Volt the Mean, Oct 19 2013, 11:51 PM.
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| Pookie | Oct 20 2013, 01:20 AM Post #12 |
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Pookie Powa!
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Three words for you Fulgore: Hall of Famer
I said that superbowls are a big deciding factor of whether or not someone is an Elite. Again, both Fulgore and yourself completely ignored me bringing up Terry Bradshaw because I think the both of you know that at this point in time, I am right. He never had the best statistics, but when it was all said and done, he is in the HOF right now and both of you just can't stomach the fact that Alex Smith hasn't done anything to deserve the elite manager type status you're trying to give him. I'm not dropping the argument because I'm right. How many multi-winning superbowl champion quarterbacks DO YOU KNOW that are not in the HOF right now? Let me know when you think of some. As for Trent Dilfer, he didn't have the best statistics either and he only won one superbowl. I'm talking about people here that have won multiple Superbowls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_quarterbacks_with_multiple_Super_Bowl_starts here is a list
I did read the entire debate, and I jumped in because when we had this discussion about Eli Manning, the two of you were quick to say NO WAY he is an elite, yet you're going to put Alex Smith as an elite, game managing quarterback? No, it doesn't work that way. He has yet to prove anything.
Eli Manning and the Giants were AWAY in that game. Not only were they away, but they were facing a "better" opponent. He was going up against a top ranking defense that YOU in your last post corrected me on how good they were.
Do I need to post Alex Smith vs. Eli Manning's stats again in the 2011 superbowl? Though they were close, in the end, Eli Manning DID do better and let me remind you that Eli Manning was on the ROAD with a team both fulgore/yourself called MEDIOCRE.
If we had someone like Alex Smith, it's possible that he would have choked and we wouldn't have had this discussion. He DID lead them there. Both Fulgore and yourself refuse to see it. He led them there because he made a team, that wasn't great to begin with, come together. He GOT the job done. Why don't you ask the cowboys how many times Tony Romo had let them down? Do I need to remind you that Eli Manning has broken the record for most 4th quarter comebacks? What has Alex Smith done?
I think the only people mad around here are both Fulgore and yourself. The two of you are ready to put anyone on the 49ers on the elite status, regardless if it is just managing skills, before they have done anything. I mean the 49ers could have Jon Kitna as their quarterback, and you two would argue that he is an elite quarterback.  ^Alex Smith was in this game against Eli Manning/Giants the following year. When it is all said and done, they get the job done. Oh yeah and Fulgore ![:=]:](http://b1.ifrm.com/1500/25/0/e1137/e1137.gif) Deion Sanders on Eli (Oh and perfect because they highlight the game where the jock strap that Eli Manning couldn't hold to Aaron Rodgers was actually the opposite:) Edited by Pookie, Oct 20 2013, 02:30 AM.
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| Fulgore | Oct 20 2013, 03:37 AM Post #13 |
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The Darkness Returns
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Dick Butkus Eric Dickerson Dan Dierdorf Dan Fouts Ken Houston Jim Kelly Steve Largent Dan Marino Warren Moon Ozzie Newsome John RandleGale Sayers OJ Simpson Bruce Smith Fran Tarkenton Derrick Thomas Thurman Thomas Never won a super bowl. All in the hall of fame. They must not be elite? You've contradicted yourself how many times? Lol. Edited by Fulgore, Oct 20 2013, 03:42 AM.
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| Pookie | Oct 20 2013, 12:56 PM Post #14 |
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Pookie Powa!
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Oh fulgore do you not know how to read?
I asked "how many multi winning Superbowl are not in the hof?" The people you place on the list are people like Dan Marino and Butckus. You even put players on there that aren't quarterbacks like OJ Simpson. I don't understand why you can't look at my fact and say "well that makes sense." Instead, you go out of your way to ignore details and post things that aren't true about my previous posts. To make it clear: You said championships don't determine elite quarterbacks, yet I asked you how many multi winning quaterbacks aren't in the Hof. Read before saying I'm contradicting myself or that I'm a hypocrite. I'd appreciate it. Thanks. Number of times I've contradicted myself= 0 Number of times you've failed to read/take facts= Over 9000
Edited by Pookie, Oct 20 2013, 01:08 PM.
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Oct 20 2013, 08:07 PM Post #15 |
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Aww it looks like you let your emotions drip into your argument.. hehehePerfect how many SB's did he win? what?! 4 omg... great, but were talking about specific players Pookie not team achievements I don't care how many SB Terry Bradshaw won even tho many of those SB wins came from that amazing defense the "Steel Curtain" which is only rivaled by the 85 bears defense which can carry a team on their back with even a QB like Jamarcus Russell at the helm Terry Bradshaw may have 4 Superbolws wins but that in no way in hell means he's better than QB's like Marino who have 0 SB's and he also made the HOF which destroys that repulsive SB argument of yours which is just potato, and that the fact that you still wanna continue that argument is making me doubt your NFL logic. Yea. bull#**t! And I quote "yet he won four superbowls. Are we we going to sit here and say he wasn't elite?"-pookie Oh and here's another and I quote "his Superbowl victories made him elite period."-pookie Oh and my favorite... This ones regarding Dan Marino btw. "It tells me that if he had won a superbowl, he'd be ranked much higher than he was. He is known for not winning a superbowl because that IS what matters." -pookie Dissected, lol that's why I never let my emotions get the best of me when I debate, oh pookie *smh* Apparently yourself and I quote "the Giants weren't that great of a team to begin with "-pookie and another... "because he made a team, that wasn't great to begin with, " -pookie Were discussing QB's pookie when will you understand that your team momentum's and luck played the biggest roles in your SB runs not Eli, all he did was seal the SB wins. Your right Terry never had the best statistics but he had the best defense at the time the "Steel Curtain" imo the Steelers could have had any above average QB at the helm and they would've won 4 SB all the same. He easily got into the HOF cuz he was the QB at the helm of that amazing team and a noptable QB at the time. And that proves another fact that SB wins mean nothing when it comes to the HOF and it isn't all that hard to get in tbh, Marino had 0 SB wins and got in the HOF with ease. So again drop that redundant argument for the love of god its just dumb idiotic tbh. I just destroyed that argument, read above. Oh so your saying that QB's with multi SB's are on a higher league than QB with 0 or just one SB? yea your losing it Pookie...  Pookie your argument is REVOLTING your essentially stating that Eli who has won 2 SB's is on a higher echelon than QB's like Dan Marino with 0 SB's, Steve Young with 1 SB, Brett Favre with 1 SB, Peyton Manning with 1 SB , or Jim Kelly with 0 SB's, cuz that is completely idiotic cuz Eli can't hold a glass of water to those QB's I'll respond to the rest of your disgusting argument later, the niners game just started! 
Edited by Volt the Mean, Oct 20 2013, 08:22 PM.
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